While every European technocrat is trying to protect the Eurozone from falling out like a castle of cards, the European sovereign debt crisis is becoming a global economic disaster.

Euro was introduced as a new hope for a united Europe with peace and prosperity but now the euro crisis is being described as a macro-economic weapon of mass destruction1 . The PIIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain) are proving to be the Achilles heel of the European Union. However, almost all governments with a centralized fiscal policy suffer similar issues. The United States is already suffering a huge national debt crisis and the United Kingdom is trying to save itself by implementing austerity measures and India is suffering extreme inflation.

Euro Debt Crisis is Affecting Global Economy Severely

The global stock markets are tumbling down heavily because of the increasing fear of defaulting European nations2 . The euro debt crisis is increasing as a contagious illness and recently, the contagious debt crisis reached Eastern Europe and Hungary was forced to ask help from the IMF3 .

Meanwhile, the global economic players are trying to persuade Eurozone to end the debt crisis as soon as possible so that they can avoid a double dip recession in the global market. As a result, Germany which is still considered as one of the most attractive investment hubs of the world4 is facing enormous political pressure.

The rift between France and Germany is increasing as France is now starting to succumb to the international pressure for allowing European Central Bank (ECB) to print more Euros out of the thin air to finance a bailout package for PIIGS and other defaulting states such as Hungary that recently asked for IMF help. The IMF and World Bank already have announced bailout packages for tumbling European countries5 and in August 2011, India also announced a bailout package of $ 2 Billion for the European countries6 .

Germany, the Lone Victim

While many European countries are suffering the burden of debt, Germany has emerged as one of the most financially stable countries with a positive economic outlook.

Instead of praising the economic balance maintained by the German government, the global political powers are now trying to paint Germany as the major villain behind the Euro Crisis. Germany has been blamed of trying to throw its weight whole around the EU to create a super-state7 .

Any idea towards a unified European Union with a centralized financial/monetary system under the European Central Bank or the newly proposed European Monetary Fund is a bad idea. However, can we blame Germany for all this mess?

I believe that Germany is being victimized by the same global political powers that unanimously supported the idea of World Bank and International Monetary Fund to help out all those poor nations suffering poverty and huge national debt. Now when Germany is demanding a similar institute to help PIIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain) along with other defaulting countries like Hungary, German technocrats are being blamed of trying to throttle the democracy8 .

Ludwig von Mises explained how debauched is the idea of International Monetary Fund and the World Bank9 , yet the United States, the United Kingdom and many other nations failed to understand the innate immorality of the IMF. IMF failed to offer any good for the world yet, the Keynesian economists never realized the failure of centralized banking10  .

The Eurozone is in fact a prototype of the dream of a world with single currency controlled by the central World Bank which as the Keynesian economists suggest is necessary for removing poverty and economic differences between developed and developing nations. The World Bank and the IMF both created a new misery which is known as the global debt crisis11 and the Eurozone and the possible European Monetry Fund is creating the euro debt crisis.

 

I agree that German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s call for European Monetary Fund is extremely ridiculous however, the people opposing this call are the same who supported the creation of World Bank and IMF that resulted in global debt crisis12 .

Why Germany is Against Printing Euros?

Almost whole international political powers are now forcing Germany to allow European Central Bank (ECB) to offer bailout packages for PIIGS and other defaulting countries. IMF has already announced monetary support for Portugal, Ireland, Italy and Spain and India which is a member of IMF and World Bank has issues $2 billion bailout package. Yet, Germany is against allowing ECB to offer any such bailout package to end the debt crisis. The reason is simple as was explained by Ludwig Von Mises, money is different from all other commodities. As we increase the quantity of currency, we create inflation and poverty. Germany is one of the most liberal countries of Europe that tries to offer maximum Individual ‘economic’ liberty. The UK, France and other nations on the other hand are a sad story of socialism.

Germany’s trade surplus stands at €15.3 billion (the UK’s trade deficit is £3.9 billion). Germany’s government is about to introduce tax cuts worth €6 billion, and recently discovered that this year’s tax intake would be €16.2 billion more than previously thought, So you can expect a higher degree of tax cuts. No other country in Europe offers such potential for economic liberty in current times13 . UK is suffering and its economy is ILL.

If Germany allows ECB to print Euros for providing a bailout package, the German citizens will have to face downright inflation that will reduce the value of their savings and will weaken their economic conditions. Almost all countries including China, India, the United States and the United Kingdom are suffering the chaotic effects of senseless bailout packages for defaulting companies in their market. Almost all politicians of the world know that bailout packages brings nothing good but inflation, price rise, poverty, further financial mismanaged and global debt crisis. Yet, all of them are pressurizing Germany to continue the same path of bailout packages.

In order to avoid the call of printing new Euros for bailing out PIIGS, Germany is forcing the idea of European Monetary Fund which will have the power to offer bailout and to take over financial policies of any member nation of European Union facing extreme debt crisis. While I consider this as a futile idea, I believe that the Euro zone is about to scramble. The only hope for Germany is to leave the euro zone and become independent of the financial responsibilities of defaulting Euro zone.

Is it Possible to Disintegrate Euro zone?

It’s not easy to leave Euro zone yet, Germany can take a chance of leaving Euro zone because of its huge surplus.

In case of Euro zone fallout, Germany will have the largest surplus to reduce the deficit Germany will incur after leaving Euro, so Germany will sustain economic crisis because of Euro fallout. German government may need to bail out its banks. But that will be better then bailing out banks of Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain (PIIGS) and now Hungary too.

On the other hand the PIIGS nations if left alone will have to peg their new currencies with euro in a ratio of 1:1 and that will keep their current debt intact. Hence, their situation is not going to get any better. Germany still has a valid economical chance to leave Euro but I don’t think they will be able to do so because of the lack of political power/will. At present UK is in deficit and Germany is in Surplus, yet Germany and France would try to force UK to accept Euro, it offers them more time to think for solution. But reality is there is no solution but a fall out and a chaos for a while.

UK National Debt Crisis

A number of British economic analysts suggest that it was a good decision for the UK government to not to accept Euro. Since UK has its own currency (Great Britain Pound), UK government and Bank of England have the power to print currency out of thin air to keep the market liquidity.

Britain is running a policy of fiscal deficit on the name of social welfare since a long time. The UK government is in habit of spending much more than what can be said as sane and government’s interference in the market is too much. Because of socialist mixed economy pattern of the United Kingdom, UK is now under a huge national debt14 . The United States is also suffering a huge national debt because of similar progressive social welfare policies.

Since the United Kingdom is already a member of European Union, it wouldn’t be too surprising if the UK government accepts the proposal of Germany and France to be a part of the mess especially if UK is provided some beneficial monetary compensation that may help the UK to reduce its own national debt and fiscal deficit.

On the other hand, Germany, France and other Euro zone nations will gain a little more time to think about a possible solution for the euro crisis. However, there hardly is a possible solution for Euro crisis and at the end; the European Union is bound to tumble.

The UK government itself isn’t in such a position to take a firm decision about joining the euro zone. British politicians are weak enough to take any stand and situations are so that either of the decisions (to accept Euro or to reject it) will be dangerous for UK.

Why Is Germany Being Criticized?

Germany is against the idea of providing bailout for the defaulting countries without firmly enforcing fiscal austerity over those nations.

Every other country of Europe and the rest of the world which is connected with World Bank and the IMF  which had an irrational dream of removing poverty by providing financial loans are strictly demanding a strong bailout package for Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain, Hungary and all other debt ridden countries.

However, the idea of bailouts and loans by International Monetary Fund and World Bank is a failure in itself because such loans and bailouts often results in increased poverty, corruption, inflation, price rise, fiscal mismanagement, and global debt crisis15 . Yet, these countries are forcing a bailout for defaulting euro zone countries to justify their own immoral and mismanaged fiscal policies of offering economic stimulus and bailout packages for defaulting economies and economic sector. Almost every nation provided a huge economic stimulus for the down-falling market in 2008. The consequences of all those stimulus and bailout are huge national debt along with high inflation rate on all those nations including India16 and China.

Such Bailouts may offer a short refuge for tumbling economies (PIIGS, Hungary etc) but it will also create a huge inflation problem that will reduce the economic liberty and the value of savings of all European citizens and the global debt crisis will take a bitter shape.

German government at present is seriously safeguarding economic Individual Liberty of Germans.

In order to defend the importance of IMF and World Bank, global powers including the USA, UK, China, and India are trying to force Germany to act fast for providing a bailout and Germany is resisting. As a result, the international media has started painting Germany as a villainous nation17 . The logic offered is quite weird. They say that Germany is the strongest economy of euro zone and hence it should help the defaulting economies.

General accusation is, Germany is making progress not because of its Liberalized economy and austerity, not because of the hard work and individual liberty of Germans but because Germany is robbing whole Euro Zone and hence Germany should now pay the bailout. This is the most bastardized argument, but remember, last month Obama announced warnings for Euro zone and said forcibly that Greek should be provided a bailout.

India is already performing its obligatory duties of offering bailout package for Euro zone. They say India is bound to do so because every nation of IMF has a responsibility to pay bailout for suffering countries. But the reality is; Indian bailout package is nothing more than a signatory force on Germany and France to offer greater part of bailout required18 .

Conclusion: Euro is certainly a macro-economic weapon of mass destruction and euro zone is bound to fail. Germany should realize the failure of IMF and World Bank and should avoid trying to implement economic reforms on other countries through forcible idea of European Monetary Fund. The only hope for Germany to survive against the foolhardiness of European and global economic powers which support bailout packages for failing economies is to leave the euro zone as soon as possible. Germany has economic power to sustain such situation and it will be better to bail out its own banks for German government rather than collecting bail out for banks of Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy (PIIGS), Hungary, and other possible defaulting European countries.

  1. The euro is a macro-economic weapon of mass destruction which must be difused, Liam Halligan, 19 Nov. 2011, The Telegraph []
  2. Global economic fears and Euro Debt Crisis Knock Markets Down, 23rd Nov., 2011, The Economic Times []
  3. Hungary Turns to IMF as Stress mounts on Eastern Europe, Ambrose Evan Prischard, 21 Nov. 2011, the Telegrph []
  4. Europe will survive debt crisis, will not disintegrate: Kater, Ben Gracia, 23 Nov. 2011, Kuwait Times []
  5. IMF weighs risk of bailout for Italy and Spain, Alan Beattie, Aug 5, 2011, IrishTimes []
  6. India to give $2bn to fund bailouts in Europe, Aug 3, 2011, Times of India []
  7. The Coming European Superstate That Germany Plans To Cram Down The Throats Of The Rest Of Europe, The Economic Collapse []
  8. Not much democracy left in Europe, 22 Nov. 2011 []
  9. Does the World Need a World Bank?, Ludwig von Mises, Ludwig von Mises Institute []
  10. End the IMF, Henry Hazlitt, 11 Nov., 1963, Ludwig von Mises Institute []
  11. Global Debt and the Third World Development, Vincent Ferraro and Melissa Rosser, 1994 []
  12. Global Debt and the Third World Development, Vincent Ferraro and Melissa Rosser, 1994 []
  13. Germany: the Reluctant Superpower, Simon Winder, 19 Nov. 2011 []
  14. UK Debt Crisis, UK National Debt – how Britain owes over £900 billion, UK National Debt Clock []
  15. Global Debt and the Third World Development, Vincent Ferraro and Melissa Rosser, 1994 []
  16. Reason Behind Indian Inflation, 19 November, 2011, Rational Libertarian Corner []
  17. Why German Taxpayers Should Be Forced To Bail Out Italians And Greeks, Joe Weisenthal, 20 Nov. 2011, Business Insider []
  18. India to give $2bn to fund bailouts in Europe, Aug 3, 2011, Times of India []

Comments


  • http://www.blindfoldedmonkey.net Blindfolded Monkey

    The Euro skeptics in the UK are no doubt feeling quite smug these days, but it appears they were right all along. The common currency may have just a little too ambitious an idea.

    • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

      Blindfolded,

      Well yes, the common currency is a little too ambitious idea, but more worries for the UK should be about its own national debt.
      I may sound rude and I am sorry about it but Britishers have fogotten whatever sane ideas Margaret Thatcher taught them. Current Britishers just love free lunches too much and this trend needs to be changed.

      I know that the current UK political leadership is a bit right wing, but it isn’t powerful enough to cut the governmental expenditure and to cut the taxes too, which is the only actual way of reducing deficit, national debt and retardation of growth.

      Britain needs to give up free healthcare and other free lunches.

      • http://www.blindfoldedmonkey.net Blindfolded Monkey

        I noticed you mentioned you are in favour of going back to the gold standard. The gold standard is quite similar to the Euro in one regard; the reasons for doing so are sound but political and human nature make it difficult to maintain in practice. If the world were to switch to the gold standard, it would only be a matter of time before countries would start abandoning it and creating chaos. To paraphrase Churchill, fiat currency the worst form of money except all the others that have been tried.

        • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

          I can understand fears of Britishers regarding the gold standard, but mentioning Winston Churchil to support fiat currency tells everything about it.

          Gold standard despite of all British bad experiences is much better than fiat currency, but I believe in competitive currency of free market.

  • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

    Unpretentious Diva

    A few facts for your consideration:

    1. Germany is not considering pulling out of the Euro. In fact, Germany is the country that is fighting hard to maintain the Euro.

    2. The common currency has been a remarkable success. The EU is the world’s largest economy; bigger than the US.

    3. The sovereign economic crisis in the Eurozone is not because of the common currency but because of government overspending. You are accurate in pointing out that most of the EU countries, and indeed the UK and USA, spent far more than they earned. But you are wrong in criticising the sovereign bailouts. As undesirable as they are, they are the only way out of this mess. But bailouts are only a part of the solution. The other two parts are severe austerity and growth.

    4. The UK has never considered accepting the Euro. Both the main political parties, Conservatives and Labour, have opposed the idea. Besides, the British government is handing this crisis much better than other countries. After the socialist Labour party lost the general elections last year, the Tories have been a step ahead of the crisis. Yet, the UK economy is still on the brink because of the situation in Europe.

    We must keep in mind that most of Europe had a long stint of socialist governments and they spent lavishly over the last decade or so. The situation has changed now. The economic right is now taking charge across the continent. Yes they have to sort out the mess and its not going to be pretty, but that’s their only way out of it. Bailout is undesirable but necessary; austerity and growth are non-negotiable. That’s what we have to watch out for.

    I think the Euro will survive this rough weather and the Eurozone will learn from this crisis.

    • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

      Indian Liberals,

      1) I never said Germany is considering out of euro, I said, it is the only option for Germany to save itself.

      2) Common currency is the biggest evil not only in EU but in every part of the world, be it India (INR) or USA ($). Common currency in the hands of a central bank can never be the success, it is meant to create bank credit related economic cycles of boom and bust. Government has no moral and practical role in controlling/interfering currency which is nothing but a commodity but yes a different kind of commodity, which creates poverty whenever it is increased unnecessarily and well, common currency most often is increased unnecessarily.

      3) You are a liberal as you name yourself. I am sure you will praise Paul Krugman for everything he says. Bailouts are NOT any part of the solution, they (if provided) will be the part of the problem which will be inflation (robbery/destruction) of wealth of those who practiced austerity and saved. Bailout will mean accepting the responsibility of failure of those who were wrong and impractical.

      4) I never said that UK is considering accepting Euro. But yes, UK is being cajoled by Germany and the France to accept Euro, and there will be no wonder if UK accepts Euro. Anyways, UK itself is in mess.

      5) Bailout is niether desirable, nor it is necessary, but it will be offered and that is the problem. What is necessary is abolition of Fiat Currency under any centralized system and allowance of competitive currency or gold standard.

      6) niether Euro, nor Dollar can survive the long run. How long the Fiat Currency is forced on people is different issue. Governments never care about failure or success of economy, what they care for is their success in maintaining domination over common men and centralized common currency is considered as one of the best way of controlling, exploiting and dominating the common men.

      • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

        1. In reality, exiting Euro is NOT an option for Germany. The Deutsche Mark is so strong that if Germany goes back to it, its export businesses would suffer immensely. That’s one of the reasons why Germany is fighting hard to save the Euro.

        2. It’s a theoretical argument and the only way to disprove it is by demonstrating the wealth this world has generated over the last 2 centuries using common currencies. Besides, if common currencies don’t work, then which other system has proven to work? – in practice, not in theory! And by the way, ‘evil’ is a word that I didn’t know could be used so liberally :)

        3. Bailing out private companies is different from bailing out sovereigns. When they run out of cash, private companies can file for bankruptcy and another private company can buy their debts etc. That simply can’t happen with sovereign nations. If sovereign nations in Europe are to go broke, as Greece was about to, they would have triggered a dangerous contagion that would have threatened the whole global economy. That would have been irresponsible.
        And bailouts need not be bad if they are managed properly. India was bailed out in 1991 on condition that we will open our economy. We are in a much better shape since then. Had we been hung to dry by the IMF, we wouldn’t be where we are today.

        4. UK is being cajoled by France and Germany ever since the Euro was created. UK didn’t join them then, and they won’t join them now. And as for UK’s mess, it was created by the socialist Labour government over the last decade. This Tory government is handling this well though. They have taken some tough decisions and they are paying off. The EU economy is threatening the British growth now.

        5. Gold standard would be a good idea but that is not even under consideration today. And I prefer to discuss practical topics, not theoretical. The only practical options at this stage are either to i) bail out the struggling sovereigns and get them on course to recovery and growth; or ii) leave them to die and trigger a crisis not seen for generations. I think the first option is much more desirable than the other.

        7. Depends on how we define “long term”. The Dollar has been in existence since the 1700s. That’s pretty long term for me. Besides, during all the financing turmoil, guess what’s the only safe heaven for investors today? Not gold, not oil, but the US Dollar. I invest in the financial markets so I know a thing or two about it. People are taking their money out of stocks and commodities and buying dollars. Even the Euro is trading much about its parity. That shows us how much faith investors have in the Euro despite all that’s going on in the continent.
        But the existence or not of the common currencies is our personal opinion. You think they won’t survive and I think they will. Only time will tell who’s right. So we need not argue about it at this stage.

        • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

          1) Yes Germny is fighting and I have mentioned that going back to DM will be difficult for Germany. So what are you actually opposing?

          2) It depends on your understanding of ‘working’ and common currency. I specifically used ‘Fiat currency’ controlled by governmental central bank. The two things are different./ Gold standard/ gold currency can also be common and it was common for a longer period of time. Furthermore, the wealth produced is certainly not the result of common or fiat currency. Currency is not a productive means, it is the medium through which productive means can be exchanged. Since it is a means which is tangible, hence it is a commodity. A commodity that increases mass poverty when it is increased ‘irrationally’, and governmental control over currency is certainly irrational.

          3) bailout is always wrong if offered by centralized banks (with power to print money) that is why Germany is OPPOSINg ANY BAILOUT FOR DEBT RIDDEN COUNTRIES THROUGH ECB> Rather germany wants to offer loan to those debt ridden countries without actually printing any money, from the surplus of its own and other bigger economies of Eurozone at a condition that the debt ridden countries will have to enforce austerity. Other nations are not agreeing. I guess you are still unfamiliar with Euro crisis. Germany is demanding a Euro Monetary Fund with no power to print new money but with power to provide loan for debt ridden countries (through the money collected by its members). This is the reason why Germany is forcing UK to accept Euro.

          4) It is your wishful thinking that Tory government has taken any good decision, last night all major financial reporters of UK were worrying for the upcoming double dip decission. uk government is too much heavy and these little steps by conservative government won’t do anything good. British growth? Most of the British Economists doesn’t agree with you on British growth as they say it is not sustinable and UK should prepare for recession.

          UK Regultors are suggesting UK Banks to start preparing for euro failure.

          5) The first option is desirable by you, I don’t know what your inherent agenda is or how you are going to make profits out of it. For me, bailout through central banks (printing machine) is evil nd robbery.

          6) Lol Dollar was initiated in 1792, it remained dependent on Gold Standard till 1933, and till then, it was good, because it was not actually fiat currency controlled by government/FED. In 1933, FED took over the gold standard and made Dollar a Fiat currency. from 1933 to 2011, its too short period and the dollar has faced failure at least thrice in this period. However, as I said earlier, despite of all failures, government has the power to sustain the failed currency.

          About faith of investors, I think I will prefer Peter Schiff rather than Indian Liberals :)

          About common currency again, I have no issue against common currency. I am against government controlled Fiat Currency. I wil certainly prefer and promote the idea of competitive currency or Gold Standard.

          • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

            let me add, Gold Standard is actually common currency which I support. Competitive currency is different and it is more desirable, but I will accept Gold Standard too which is “common currency” yet, not Fiat currency controlled by Government/central banks.

          • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

            1. I am not opposing anything. I am merely countering your argument that the best option for Germany is to exit the Euro. It is not.

            2. You are quite right that currencies don’t produce wealth and they are merely the medium through which wealth is exchanged. My point was that Fiat money has done that job fairly well in the last century or two and to demonise the system because of a crisis caused by an entirely irrelevant cause (excessive government spending) is wrong.

            3. Okay so you don’t oppose bailout per se but you oppose bailout through ECB. That’s fair and I agree with you. The ECB can’t be a banker of last resort and the bank has said as much very recently. But let’s make this clear – bailout itself is required. Not through ECB but through EFSF/ESM/IMF etc. (oh and by the way, must mention this in passing that I live in the UK and trade the financial markets for a living. If I was still unfamiliar with the Euro crisis, I wouldn’t make a living. And that’s not the case :) )

            4. Again, the UK government has done, and is doing, everything it can to get the British economy out of its mess. Only two years ago, Britain was on its way to becoming another Greece or Ireland. Today, it is the only country in Europe out of the red zone. Its credit ratings are safe and the economy is still resilient. Yes, the Euro crisis is threatening the UK economy but then it is threatening the entire world. Even China and US are worried about Europe. That doesn’t mean the British government is messed up. In an interlinked global economy, its the domino effect that threatens good economies.

            5. There are various ways of bailouts than printing money. I don’t know why you are stuck on printing money. It’s not the only option, FYI.

            6. And just why did the Gold standard go out of favour? Blame it all on Kaynes?

            7. Hmm and I trust free markets more than opinionated commentators :)

            • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

              1)Leaving Euro zone is the only way for Germany to save itself, it will not happen and Germany will suffer.

              2) You can keep praising government/fiat currency while ignoring the fact that fiat is a failure and immoral too. Time is just going against your wishful thinking.I am not demonizing Fiat currency for the current bust, I am discussing the inevitability of boom-bust cycles under a fiat system. This crisis is nothing new, it is the consequence of previous crisis. Its not like Greece is being bailed out first time. Also, what is current debt position of India? Are you sure India will not be at the position of bankruptcy ever again? Because it was bailed out in 1991? Who will pay Indian Debt? RBI?

              3) It doesn’t matter whether you live in UK or USA or Germany, I can observe that you are not familiar about actual position of Euro or even the UK economy too. In fact you are too unaware about UK crisis itself. you claim UK is out of red zone, the charts shows that the production growth is still abysmal and the credit ratings are still at the verge of risk. Just because Euro crisis has taken the centerstage, the UK debt issues have been put on the backburner, but that doesn’t reduce the actual risk for UK which is from within, from its own socialist policies which are hard to change.

              About Bailout, the term discussed here is strictly the central government printing money to provide bailout. But yes, I am against the EMF too, because it is direct robbery against German to support Greece. And when you have revealed that you are in UK, it is quite clear why you want Germany to rob its own people to support Greece. In fact, UK should also provide Bailout for Greece by your logic. But I am against it. I am against the Indian bailout ( of $2 billions) sent for Greece and other European countries. You see, even after attaining bailouts, Greece is still in danger. There’s no progress. providing more will make the situation better? Lets rob the people then to save Greece, italy, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Hungary and so many others.
              I am simply against it specially when Bailout by government strictly means usage of people’s money by the government without the consent of people in saving bad assets.

              4) I know for you UK is good economy. I don’t agree.

              5) Bailout in this post strictly refer to central bank printing money, this bailout is being demanded by PIIGS. I am against it and I am against any form of sovereign bailout which involves money offered by a government without consent of its people to invest in bad assets. Greece is a bad asset. How many private investors will prefer to invest in Greece? why do you want UK government to invest in Greece when you yourself are not ready to Invest in Greece? this is contradictory, and I don’t live a contradictory life. Contradictions cannot exist.

              6) Why don’t you raise your suspicions about gold standard to get the answers? I have already mentioned tht I support Competitive currency (free market currency) but yes, I will defend Gold standard because it is much better than Fiat currency.

              7) Lol I understand you do not know the meaning of free market specially when you support Fiat money. what regulation on the market can be bigger than the Fiat money? there is no other restriction bigger than the fiat money over any market. A restricted market can be termed as free, only by liberals. By the way, Paul Krugman calims he is Liberal and so do Barack Obama.

              About Peter Schiff, as I said earlier, I will trust Peter Schiff more than Indian Liberals or Paul Krugman or Barack Obama. My trust doesn’t mean blind faith.

              • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

                1. An opinionated comment. Best to ignore. That’s your opinion and you are entitled to it.

                2. Many opinionated comments. But to answer your question of who will bail India out if and when India defaults again… well, I don’t work with ifs and buts. Greece defaulted only once before. Know when? 24 centuries ago. :D

                3. Thanks for passing judgements over my awareness and knowledge. Best not to comment.

                4. Again, that’s your opinion and you are entitled to it.

                5. I don’t suppose I ever said the UK government should invest in Greece. Do point out where I said so. But I like your question about private investors in Greece. There actually are many. They are just asking very high yields and for obvious reasons. And hence the need for institutions such as the IMF and World Bank.

                6. A reply to a question is not another question. Why did Gold standard go out of favour? International conspiracy of the socialists?

                7. You clearly paint the world in black and white when it is anything but. Central banking system is not perfect but its not entirely useless. Central banks play an important role in the increasingly complicated global economic system. Take the Swiss central bank’s role in protecting Swiss interests in this crisis for instance. They stepped in to ensure that the Swiss Franc does not strengthen out of proportion and hurt Swiss businesses. That’s a positive intervention.

                Anyway, it’s impossible to reason with headstrong idealists and I won’t waste my time trying to do that.

              • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

                1) the first point was always your insane opinion that exiting euro will be wrong for Germany. I understand your collectivist approach and its evilness and I don’t agree with your opinion.

                2) You are wrong, Greece defaulted in 2009 and it was offered bailout in 2010, this is the second time Greece is in need of Bailout. By the way, Greek Democracy was established in 1974 and after that, the democratic government and central bank took control. So your spoof of 24 century is senseless.

                3) You cannot make any comment but yes, you are free to offer your opinions.

                4) So you are.

                5) Bailout is nothing but a sort of investment. or you think it is charity? than it is insane. You want UK government to offer charity to Greece without expecting any return?

                6) Raise your suspicions against Gold Standard and you will be answered, I don’t think I should entertain your spoofs.

                7) You are simply suggesting to accept the middle path mixed economy at the stake of freedom. Nothing better can be expected from Liberals like Paul Krugman and Obama and their supporters. Why didn’t you vote for Gordon Brown? or may be i am wrong, you did vote him.

              • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

                “1) the first point was always your insane opinion that exiting euro will be wrong for Germany. I understand your collectivist approach and its evilness and I don’t agree with your opinion.”

                Yes it is my opinion, just like yours is that the only option for them is to exit the Euro. It’s just that I don’t brand your opinion as ‘insane’ or ‘evil’. I guess that’s the difference between you and me. Clearly shows who tolerates difference of opinions.

                “2) You are wrong, Greece defaulted in 2009 and it was offered bailout in 2010, this is the second time Greece is in need of Bailout. By the way, Greek Democracy was established in 1974 and after that, the democratic government and central bank took control. So your spoof of 24 century is senseless.”

                The less I say the better. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-22/greece-on-edge-of-biggest-insolvency-24-centuries-after-first-city-default.html

                “3) You cannot make any comment but yes, you are free to offer your opinions.”

                What?

                “4) So you are.”

                Thanks for the unexpected civilised gesture. Appreciate it.

                “5) Bailout is nothing but a sort of investment. or you think it is charity? than it is insane. You want UK government to offer charity to Greece without expecting any return?”

                It’s neither an investment nor charity. A bailout in this case is to protect the long-term economic interests of other sovereign nations and their businesses. Besides, I never said the UK should bail out Greece. I asked you to show where I said so and you haven’t.

                “6) Raise your suspicions against Gold Standard and you will be answered, I don’t think I should entertain your spoofs.”

                :) You simply don’t have an answer to that, do you?

                “7) You are simply suggesting to accept the middle path mixed economy at the stake of freedom. Nothing better can be expected from Liberals like Paul Krugman and Obama and their supporters. Why didn’t you vote for Gordon Brown? or may be i am wrong, you did vote him.”

                Who I vote is none of your business but since you asked, I voted for David Cameroon. And yes, I am suggesting a path that actually works in practice, not in your wonderland. Even as a classical liberal, I accept that central banks are imperfect but useful and they need not be abolished. Yes their role must be limited and they must intervene only when all other options are exhausted.

              • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

                You simply don’t have an answer to that, do you?

                Lol, As I said earlier, raise your suspicions against gold standard and you will be answered. I am not a historian to tell you what happened in the history.

                And again, Government bonds are just a disguise to rob citizens.

    • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

      By the way, while trying to explore more about German economic history, I came to know that Germany and the whole Europe suffered similar crisis in 1873 and that crisis was named as Founders Crash. The Founders Crash happened becasue of the collapse of Vienna Stock Exchange which was the most powerful stock market of that time. The term fo depression after Vienna Stock Exchange Crash is now known as The Long Depression but before 1929, when Wall Street crash happened, this same Founders Crash was also known as The Great Depression. (Obviously, Wall Street Crash created a bigger depression.)

      The funny thing is, in order to avoid the collapse of Germany itself, the then German government adopted Gold Standard and saved itself. Gold Standard prevented any unwarranted increase in money (Bailout) and kept the conditions under check.

      Germany is following the trail of Spain, Italy and France and the recent reports suggest that german growth is just 0.5 percent.

      German government has done well by keeping its fiscal deficit in control (just 4.3 % of GDP), yet German government has always ignored the issue of national debt and German debt is 83.2 % of its GDP. It is too huge to bear. One can say that Germany is itself in deep turmoil, it is in shaky conditions just like UK is>

      I guess it is the time for Germany to stop worrying about the unnecessary euro and to start accepting austerity decisions by itself. Germany needs to mend its own ways before trying to expect better policies from other governments.

      But yes, in case of a Euro collapse, one can imagine Germany going back to Gold Standard, and that will be a beautiful thing in the disguise of Euro collapse.

    • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

      And Indian Liberals,

      Germany has already rejected the idea of bailout.

      Angela Merkel was unmoved by another roller-coaster day that saw Portuguese debt being downgraded to junk status, Italian bond yields pushed into the bail-out zone, and doubts cast over France’s AAA rating: the German Chancellor refused to allow the ECB to become Europe’s lender of last resort.

      Ms Merkel instead used a three-way summit with France and Italy in Strasbourg to insist that new treaty powers to intervene and punish sinner states remained the key focus of Europe’s rescue efforts. She said: “The countries who don’t keep to the stability pact have to be punished – those who contravene it need to be penalised. We need to make sure this doesn’t happen again.”

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8914163/Germany-unmoved-by-French-pleas-for-more-ECB-action.html

  • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

    By the way, Indian Liberals, I am certainly curious about this, When Investment in Greece is irrational for Individual investors, how will it make good investment for the combined nation when Government will offer bailout without restriction the Freedom of Greek people? Are Greek ready to offer their freedom to Germans, France, UK, USA, IMF, World Bank? Why are there regular rage in Greece? What are Greek people fighting against? why don’t they give up their free lunches?

    If you are willing to offer Bailout for Greece without restricting the economic freedom of Greek government and enforcing strict austerity measures on Greek government, than your idea of bailout is ridiculously insane.

    But if you are supporting to force Greek government to loose its economic freedom to decide its own budget, then you are simply against Democracy of Greek people. Anyways, I am simply against Bailout because I can’t stand Contradictions.

    • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

      That’s a very good question and I must answer it.

      Investing in Greece is not in the interests of individual investors because the are only interested in making short-term profits, as they should be. Governments and central banks have interests beyond short-term profits. They must ensure that their economies survive, their businesses can stay afloat and they prosper in the long term.

      If Greece falls, not only will individual investors suffer (many will go out of business) but they will trigger the worst credit crisis we have ever seen. That’s not good for anyone – countries or their constituents.

      Now why is there regular rage in Greece? I hope you don’t suppose it’s because their freedoms are at stake. No. It’s because they don’t want to government to cut spending. People there are so used to the welfare state that they don’t like the harsh austerity measures. It’s the socialists and trade unions that are raging. The Greek people are not fighting against bailouts but against spending cuts.

      I think you didn’t note in my previous comment that bailout is only part of the solution. That’s why the ‘banker of last resort’ doesn’t work because just printing money and offering it to the sovereigns won’t work. The other two parts of the solution are austerity and growth. Bailout is meaningless without austerity and growth. But growth simply won’t happen before the sovereigns are pulled out of their current mess.

      So to sum up, I am neither in favour of unconditional bailouts nor am I in support of undermining Greek democracy. They should be offered the bailout under conditions that they will adopt austerity measures and put together a tangible growth plan.

      • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

        Now why is there regular rage in Greece? I hope you don’t suppose it’s because their freedoms are at stake. No. It’s because they don’t want to government to cut spending. People there are so used to the welfare state that they don’t like the harsh austerity measures. It’s the socialists and trade unions that are raging. The Greek people are not fighting against bailouts but against spending cuts.

        There freedom is at stake specially when the nations willing to offer Bailout are trying to impose restrictions on Greece forcibly while the greeeks are not ready to accept it. Freedom certainly means freedom to commit mistakes and fail. Bailout isn’t the solution, letting them fail or understand themselves and better themselves is the actual free market procedure. Forcing austerity on them after forcing citizens of other nations to give up their savings is ridiculously insane and against the freedom of the citizens of both countries. But you won’t care about it.

        I cannot accept breach of Non Aggression principle and bailout is aggression against the citizens of the country which offers bailout, and it is against people of those countries which attains it. Why? Cos bailout providing country isn’t asking citizen’s choice and if even a single citizen against his money invested in Greece, government of Germany/UK/India isn’t allowing him to avoid his money being invested in Greece. It is aggression and robbery.

        Bailout is against Greeks because after offering bailout youwill be demnding force on Greeks to learn austerity. That’s not the right way.

        • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

          In my world, when someone asks for help and you offer it, that doesn’t constitute aggression. The world didn’t “impose” austerity on the Greeks. It’s their condition for offering help and the Greeks accepted those conditions. You won’t call it aggression when shareholders in a private company demand that the company makes profits, do you?

          But let’s look at the options. The reality on the ground is that if Greece defaults, everyone suffers – private investors as well as ordinary citizens. If you are against bailing out Greece, what’s your practical solution? Practical, not theoretical.

          • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

            In your world, your government will offer your money to anyone without your consent because they asked for help and you won’t say that it is aggression against you, it is not robbery of your money by the government because you believe its not your money but that of government.

            Bailing out greece is no solution, it is just extension of the problem. Solution is simple, let them default and learn. Why are you so worried if you really believe in free market?

            oh yes, If Greece defaults and goes bankrupt, UK will face the sudden attention against its own problems/issues. Well, UK have committed wrong, UK citizens enjoyed huge social welfare benefits and they are still enjoying social benefits. Nothing much change in the fiscal deficit of UK from the era of Gordon Brown and current govrrnment. and well the Nationl debt is always increasing. Still you say things are improving? How? Things improve when fiscl deficit increases or remains same? Things improve when National debt increases or increases at a little slower rate?

            I guess you will ignore this because you have no answer. UK economy is still a burden on individuals of United Kingdom.

            • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

              Every dollar that the government raises is not robbed. Governments auction bonds in the open market, for instance. That’s not robbed from me. Direct taxes, on the other hand, is plain robbery and I am against it. But to say that everything that the government does is robbery would be unfair.

              Letting Greece default is an option but it’s not a simple option as you put it. If the Greeks default in a disorderly manner, it would be bloody and painful. That’s still a possibility but I would prefer that to be the last option. That doesn’t make me a collectivist or insane or immoral or evil any more than your preference makes you angelic. These are just two opinions we hold and have our reasons to hold those opinions.

              I have lived in the UK during the 2008 crisis and I live here now. I can tell you from first-hand experience that the situation is improving. The debt reduction plans that the new government put in place are working, we can see severe cuts to government spending materialising, and the economy is growing, albeit very slowly.

              Only time will tell whether the government’s plans have worked but the level of confidence is much greater today in the country than it was in 2008.

              UK is still threatened by the global turmoil but that’s to be expected in an interlinked financial system, of which London is the hub.

              • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

                Ohh wow! The issue of government bonds.

                The funny thing is, this idea of government bonds was first introduced by the British government in 1693 and those bonds were introduced to collect money for waging a war against France.

                I will say that it seems to be a better option. But the real purpose of these government bonds/teasury bonds/ etc is often something different than trying to collect money from the private investors or other nations. As for example, Indian government bonds in 2008, 2009, 2010 for providing economic stimulus (bailout) were majorly bought by the RBI and it printed money (or opened the gates of its reserves) to buy government bonds. Now, this is robbery, indirect robbery because it is indirect taxation (Inflation).

                The treasury bonds of USA were bought by FED to provide required currency for Obama government so that he may bailout those huge automobiles companies and may provide funds for those big Solar Power companies like Sonyndra. it was robbery.

                Now when you have raised the issue of bonds, I was studying the declining situation of German and UK economy. Germany issued government bonds to be auctioned (3 days?) ago, and a declination of 60% was observed in the interest of investors in German bonds. So, when individuals are not ready to buy Government bonds, who will? German central bank?

                Just like Bank of England bought most of the British Bonds in 2009? Such purchasing of Government Bonds by Bank of England is nothing but robbery that too on two way manner. Firstly, such increase in currency (newly printed money) causes INFLATION, secondly, its not government but the citizens who are liable to pay the loan back (with interest) while the government enjoys the power to waste this newly printed currency in baseless unwanted bad assets, like providing bailout to Greece?

                Now when you are claiming that UK economy is growing (albeit slowly), I will give benefit of doubt for you. It’s not over yet, we can see till how long the increasing National Debt can keep increasing. Remember, UK National Debt is still increasing at a significant rate and UK National Debt has nothing to do with Euro crisis.

              • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

                By the way Indian Liberals,

                You have offered me a good topic to write upon.

                I will be busting your myth of Government Bonds/War Bonds/Treasury Bonds/Gilts/Government Stocks etc in my next post on Rational Libertarian Corner, and yes you will be invited to take your dig in that post.


                Government bonds are not robbery? Ohh yea, they aren’t robbery, they are deciet, or what we call thuggery. I will also be showing the success of fiat based currency during the times of expansion and how fiat based currency always falters and creates mass panic at every call of recession (which is inevitable.).

              • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

                You seem to be very selective about the information you acquire. True, the governments own an unacceptable proportion of their national debt, but they are not by any means the largest bond holders. It’s the insurance companies, pension funds, other financial institutions, and even foreign governments who own a large proportion of national debts.

                I am with you in saying that the governments should not buy their own bonds (defies the purpose really) but they do in certain instances (just like corporations buy back their company shares). I am not defending government purchase of bonds; I oppose it as a matter of fact. But you seem to believe that the only purpose governments issue those bonds is to buy them back. I find that amusing.

                German bunds – Again, selective reading. The German bunds were not sold last week because of some technical glitch in their auction. I hope you also know that the German bunds are back where they should be, yielding negative numbers i.e. bund holders are willing to pay the government to sell its bunds.

                Thanks for the benefit of doubt on the UK economy :p but I don’t need it. It’s merely my reading of the situation that the UK economy will withstand this crisis, as will Euro. Having said that, I could be wrong and we may see things worsen in the new year. I just don’t have the divine power as you to declare that only I am right.

                And yes, do write whatever you deem fit. After all, it’s your real estate. Just be careful with your research and don’t be selective about the information you read.

                As for your offer to let me take a dig on that post, I couldn’t care less. I find it stimulating to debate with reasonable people. It’s just very draining to debate with those who are convinced that they are absolutely right and everyone else who doesn’t agree with them is immoral, insane, evil… That’s why I prefer not to debate with the religious zealots as well.

                To each his own!

              • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

                IndianLiberals,
                As a matter of fact, you are acting like you know all. Simple thing is, The problem is not that government buys its own bonds, the problem is government offers bonds and then instead of paying the loan back by itself through Disinvestment, Government prefers to increase taxes, print money and hence increase inflation. All of this is robbery. Such Bonds are nothing but extreme case of robbery against citizens because without taking their consent, these citizens were forced to accept extreme national debt (incurred by similar bailouts.)

                You need to understand that it is not the government but the citizens who are liable to pay the government bonds back. No matter who buys them, but citizens didn’t sell them, so why should they pay back? But since they are forced to pay back, Government bonds are fraud. But yea, you are convinced that you are genious so you won’t understand. Anyways, here are all the answers for you. 1) Why Government Bonds are not wise? 2) Can Government Bonds remain Honest (Yes but in what conditions?) 3) Why Gold Standard was abolished? (Roosvelt wanted money redeemed in money itself so that printing press of FED may work well.) And what is the correct solution for Greece? Let it go bankrupt and sell its public sector. Just like what happened with India in 1991. No need to bailout. http://rationallibertariancorner.com/anarcho-capitalism/bailouts-and-government-bonds.html

                Also, German Bunds never got back and there was no technical issue, at least not till 2 hours ago.., check this news, it is just two hours old. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2011\11\27\story_27-11-2011_pg5_28
                But yea, you are selective reader. Can’t say what you read.

              • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

                It’s just very draining to debate with those who are convinced that they are absolutely right and everyone else who doesn’t agree with them is immoral, insane, evil… That’s why I prefer not to debate with the religious zealots as well.

                The very first thing is, I never claimed that you are immoral, insane, evil or whatever, I did say that your opinion is insane (for me it is.) I said that bailouts are evil, and bonds are immoral. When did I name called you? Now check your own premises, right since start your are abusing me, some time you will call me leftist and other time you will start calling me religious zealot.

                Your problem is you are moral relativist, something which is bad/immoral for you in a certain case, seems to be totally perfect in a different case. Direct taxes are wrong? So why is Inflation not wrong? Why is collective debt not wrong for which an Individual never consented? Why is VAT Sales tax, property tax, and Indirect taxes not wrong? Here is the contradiction. You kept spoofing against gold standard, that shows how flexible you are to agree to anything you find fitting with your own idea of brown as you believe that there can be nothing black or white. If you are so adamant in establishing that Fiat currency is perfect or at least better than Gold Standard, then why did you metion that you will prefer gold standard? Anyways, I have realized that you love to live in contradtictions. It doesn’t really matter to me, certainly not.

                Actually, it doesn’t matter. It is your choice to believe and behave in whatever manner you want to behave. But for me, I can’t stand contradictions. About your silly attacks like “divine power”, It is ridiculous. I never said that UK will not survive, I Clearly said that no matter how worst economy goes, UK government has all powers to maintain the fiat currency and its fraud because that is more beneficial for government (but not for citizens).

                Your problem is you are pro-government, and I am pro-liberty, that’s it. I am not a foreteller, I don’t care if UK fails or Greece fails, but yes since Greece will ultimately gain bailout and since bailouts are evil, I will criticize it.

            • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

              “Such Bonds are nothing but extreme case of robbery against citizens because without taking their consent, these citizens were forced to accept extreme national debt (incurred by similar bailouts.)”

              The way representative democracy works is that citizens vote their representatives to run the country on their behalf. If they don’t like the way their country was run in the next 4-5 years, they replace their representatives. Works perfectly well around the world, and as a matter of fact, more countries are preferring this system over other. If citizens were convinced that all the governments do is rob them, there would have been great uprisings around the world, long time back. You should take a hint from that.

              “You need to understand that it is not the government but the citizens who are liable to pay the government bonds back.”

              Yes, because it’s a government of the people, by the people, for the people. I am happy to pay to the government for the services they offer, including but not limited to, defence and law & order. The government is free to use it the way it wants for the term it is in office and if I don’t like the way they have used it, I will vote for someone else.

              I guess what underlines our difference is your belief that government and liberty are mutually exclusive. I clearly don’t think so.

              • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

                Keep Dreaming, and by the way to define Democracy, Ayn Rand did a great job.

                “Democratic” in its original meaning [refers to] unlimited majority rule . . . a social system in which one’s work, one’s property, one’s mind, and one’s life are at the mercy of any gang that may muster the vote of a majority at any moment for any purpose.

                http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/democracy.html

                I can’t stand contradictions like you moral relativist. And I never vote you can keep doing so to your Congress goons.

              • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

                Keep Dreaming, and by the way to define Democracy, Ayn Rand did a great job.

                “Democratic” in its original meaning [refers to] unlimited majority rule . . . a social system in which one’s work, one’s property, one’s mind, and one’s life are at the mercy of any gang that may muster the vote of a majority at any moment for any purpose.

                http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/democracy.html

                I can’t stand contradictions like you moral relativist. And I never vote and there is a reason Why Not To Vote

            • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

              And thanks for the link re: German bunds. Daily Times – A new voice for a new Pakistan? Really? Is that your source of business information? You just don’t fail to amuse me.

              Here’s Bloomberg’s live bond rates FYI http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates-bonds/government-bonds/germany/

              Now I will spare you the embarrassment of finding out which one is more credible. It’s Bloomberg :D (Unless, Daily Times is an anarcho-capitalist newspaper and hence more credible in your eyes!)

              • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

                “But for me, I can’t stand contradictions.”

                Tell you what’s a contradiction. You despise governments and yet live in a world significantly facilitated by democratic governments. In that sense, your life itself is contradictory to your core convictions. But I am sure you would prefer to carry on living? And I am a moral relativist?

              • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

                Yes Deodhar you are moral relativist.

                About me living under government, yes I am living under government and I despise and oppose it. I am forced to pay income tax and I know it is immoral. But I am not immoral, System whiich I am forced to bear is immoral. I cannot stand contradictions like you moral relativists do.
                I know government intervention in Market is immoral and disastrous and I oppose/criticize it, unlike you who want to support government intervention in market at every second step yet wants to claim that he is a pro-free market.

                Its contradiction, your every statement is contradiction and you are such a frustrated soul that you hve blindfolded your eyes to see those contradictions.

                Government Bonds are Interventionism in Market, Fiat Currency is Interventionism in Market, Inflation is Intervention in Free Market, Bailouts are Intervention in Market.

                If you support all or any of it, you are not Pro-Free Market libertarian, but you just are a progressive left liberal who support mixed economy, interventionism and socialism.

              • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

                Indian Liberals,

                get a life, new voice from Pakistan? Does it really matters? The news is on internet, just search on Google and you will see hundreds of sites offering the news, pick any read it…

                What are you actually opposing here? The fact that Government Bonds are disastrous? Or the fact that German Bonds are declining? Check bloomberg site again and see the red marks.

                I have mentioned this many times that under Fiat currency, government won’t let its bond/currency yield. That doesn’t mean it is successful… rather it is disastrous. Germany is increasing its own national debt and fiscal deficit which is now 83.4 % of its GDP , worse situation than that of France.

              • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

                “Check bloomberg site again and see the red marks.”

                Ohhh my God. You couldn’t be serious!!! The ‘red marks’ is what I was referring to. Those red marks suggest that the German bunds are so much in demand that they are returning negative yields i.e. buyers are willing to pay to the German government to buy its bunds. But I guess you will need to learn some basics in finance to understand that! Gosh… I really am wasting my time on you. Good bye.

              • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

                IndianLiberals,

                Again you are committing the same mistake. Check the site again and see the red marks and then check my claim that no matter what happens, government with its Fiat currency will never let these bonds suffer. Even T-Bonds of US didn’t fail. But how does it matters?

                The burden of debt is not on government, but on poor citizens. Are you getting me? No you cannot.

              • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

                “The burden of debt is not on government, but on poor citizens. Are you getting me? No you cannot.”

                By using adjectives such as ‘poor’, you can’t tilt the argument in your favour. Yes the debt burden is on the people because the government is of the people, by the people and for the people. Are you getting me? No you aren’t because you don’t get the idea of representative democracy.

                And thanks but I don’t believe in every word of demi-gods and I certainly don’t agree with Rand on her definition of democracy. You can worship her in the temples you have built in your wonderland but that wouldn’t make it right.

                If you are so convinced that democracy is wrong or immoral or whatever else you fantasise, then find a place in the world that doesn’t have a democracy and move there. There are plenty of such places on the planet. That would be good riddance indeed :)

              • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

                ^And there lies the contradiction. People don’t represent an Individual, you cannot understand it. I am an Individual not “The People.”

                Hitler was Democratically chosen, so all that he did was done by Germans right?

              • http://indianliberals.org IndianLiberals

                “People don’t represent an Individual”

                No people are a collection of individuals, and at least in a civilised society, they take decisions through deliberation and consensus. No man is an island.

                But anyway, that’s besides the point. Let me agree with you, only to cut the chase short, that representative democracy is wrong. Fair enough, leave it. As I said, go find a place that does not follow that system. Will you? Hell, even your heroine ran off to a democratic state to save her life! So much for all the talk about contradictions!

              • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

                IndianLiberals this is my last answer to your bickerings.

                Voter turnout in last Indian elections was 57%, and 29% of those 57% voted for Congress (which is merely 14% of total voters of India). Government niether represent the majority, nor the People.

                Second thing is, even if in some case government represents majority, then also, the minority is still unpresented by majority.
                I have realized your deep rooted collective mindset and I have no problem with it, i am already bearing too much interventionism against my will.
                this thread is closed now.

  • Pingback: Bailouts and Government Bonds | Rational Libertarian Corner

  • http://rationallibertariancorner.com/ Unpretentious Diva

    Its so funny to see people supporting government bonds and still claiming that they are pro-free market. Government bonds are specific interventionism that breaks every chord of free market principles.

    I will suggest read Ron Paul about Government Bonds.

    http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=170

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